Colin Keefe

About this Video

Colin Keefe enlisted in the United States Marine Corps prior to September 11th and was honorably discharged in 2003. His unit was charged with taking Gas Operation Separation Plants (GOSPs). Keefe is happy that he joined the Marines and feels he learned a lot and would want the same for his son. On the other hand, Keefe says that the idea of his son being in danger makes him much more appreciative of what his parents went through while he was deployed.

Enlistment

Colin Keefe was born in Stanford, Connecticut. His family moved to Greenwich Village before settling in West Chester, New York where Keefe was raised. He was a track star in high school and attended Lehigh University. He enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. At the time of the events on September 11, 2001, Keefe was a corporal and a squad leader in the Marines and knew he would be deployed as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Keefe was honorably discharged in the summer of 2003. Months later he found himself back at Lehigh University working on a History degree where he was enrolled in a class taught by Dr. John Pettegrew. Keefe graduated with honors from Lehigh and then attended Georgetown Law School. He has worked as a lawyer in New York City and has recently moved back to the Lehigh Valley with his wife and two children.

Keefe has attended alumni events at Lehigh University as well as the annual veteran's lunch the school sponsors. However, he notes that most attendees are significantly older and that he may no longer attend. Keefe donates financially to the track team.

Training

In answer to how Keefe’s views on his service and training have evolved, he states that it is important to him that his service overseas meant something and was in service of the greater good. While he is unsure how to define the greater good, he does believe one element to the definition is whether it was for the greater good of the Iraqi people. His thoughts and struggles with his service have very little to do with the personal harm he was in and revolves around his killing of Iraqis. It is this killing which affects him most deeply. Keefe says that his service is more difficult to come to terms with if he killed those people for no reason.

Deployment

Keefe relays the story of one incident for which he received a medal where his unit was ambushed on the outskirts of Baghdad. A teenager was firing at them and Keefe responded by shooting back and killing the teenager. As they were removing the bodies, the older brother of the slain teenager appeared and was very emotional about the death of his younger brother. That is the incident that sticks most with Keefe. He tends to hope that the war was in service of the greater good but even ten years later; he says that is still to be determined. He notes that recently Fallujah was retaken and that there are new reports every day of the fighting.

On the tenth anniversary of the invasion, Keefe had a conversation with other veterans and concluded, at least initially, that it is probable had the United States not attacked that Iraq would be tearing itself to pieces right now and would look like the situation in Syria. The Sunni minority and the Shiite majority would have faced increased tensions exacerbated by Saddam Hussein growing older and Iran’s increase in power. All of those factors would have inevitably led to conflict. He believes that it would resemble Syria with Al-Qaeda taking the place of the Sunni and Iran taking the place of the Shiites. Keefe thinks that the invasion and the subsequent occupation bore some of the brunt of that for the Iraqi people and that perhaps their presence did take the main blow of an inevitable conflict. At least, that is what Keefe likes to think.

In retrospect, Keefe says that the decision to invade should not have been made because there were no Weapons of Mass Destructions (WMDs) found so there is no argument that the invasion was actually in the best interest of the United States. He cares less about that discussion because he didn’t kill Americans. Keefe notes that there was a really small number of Americans killed when compared to the numbers inflicted upon Iraq. He is more concerned with the people that he killed, people who were defending their homes, than he is with determining whether the act was justified. He hopes that there is some reason to it all and that it wasn’t just senseless violence.

Keefe relays his experience on the first day of the invasion. It happened at 2AM and they were situated in a giant burm that was 80-ft high and 100-ft wide. He describes it as a giant sand mountain extending the length of the border between Iraq and Kuwait. His unit had been holding position on the Kuwait side while awaiting word that to invade. They didn’t know it at the time but this was when there was the conflict in the United Nations over the war. A bombing campaign started in the morning so Keefe knew that they’d be going that night. The men packed up their gear and slept. At 2AM they blew a hole in the sand berm and they were the second Marine battalion into Iraq. At the same time, the Army was off to the west where there was little opposition but lots of desert. Keefe’s unit was charged with taking Gas Operation Separation Plants (GOSPs). There were 5 to 6 GOSPs and his unit was charged with taking two of them. He remembers all of them being especially keyed up and that there was artillery going off and planes flying overhead as they bombed. Keefe says that they even shot at an abandoned tank from the ’91 invasion since they were able to pick up the tank with their thermal vision sensing equipment. The tanks would retain heat from the day and then would glow at night. This enabled the thermal to be able to pick up the tank. He notes that night vision thermals are distinguishable from night vision goggles. Keefe says that as they rode in he was part of the anti-armor attack team and notes that the hummers he rode in were not as advanced as today’s Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles. His had no armor or shields. Keefe served as gunner and used a MARK 19 automatic grenade launcher that shot 40-mm grenades like a machine gun over three quarters of a mile. Along with Keefe, his vehicle contained a sergeant and a corporal first. Corporal first was responsible for serving as a javelin gunner. The vehicles were equipped with Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire-guided (TOW) missiles on top of it and had thermal image capabilities. The rest of the men had night vision goggles that take in ambient light and magnifies it so that you can see well.

Keefe was situated in a turret so that he was standing out of the Hummer with his upper body exposed. Today, there would be shields offering some protection but not then. His machine gun was mounted on top of the Hummer with grenades to shoot out of it located close by. As they drove through the desert, they picked up some thermals and shot at them before realizing that they were abandoned. The mission was well timed and they arrived at the GOSPs at dawn. It was defended but without gumption. The Iraqi army shot some token rounds before surrendering or fleeing. Keefe remembers that it seemed exciting at the time but it was nothing when compared to later conflicts. He remembers that it was a giant oil refinery with pipes everywhere and that they holes in the pipes caused by gunfire caused gushing flames. The whole scene was better than any movie. After that, they rounded up what Iraqis they could find and called it a day.

His feelings described in the 2005 transcript excerpt about having a lot of adrenaline but little fear still rings true. He doesn’t think of the personal danger he was in while serving, In retrospect, the stress was slowly building so at the end of his enlistment he was pretty wrung out but that the feeling was different from fear. Keefe doesn’t recall being scared overall. Instead, it was exciting. There is no more a difficult or demanding endeavor than war. It is a fundamental test of a person’s abilities.

Keefe was already in the Marine Corps for four years when the occupation started and he was involuntarily extended to go to Iraq. Still, he would have elected to go anyway. Years later he received extra pay for that service as a result of President Obama signing a bill for stop-loss pay. He received the money as a check delivered in the mail.

Since having children, Keefe is more cared of anything happening to them than he was of anything during the war. He relays the story of his son getting stitches and says that he has deeper connection to his children than to anything else. He isn’t sure he ever cared about anything before his children and that includes himself. Looking back, Keefe isn’t sure he realized how much he had to lose. While he didn’t want to let his buddies down, it wasn’t the same level of emotional investment. He also says that there wasn’t much physical pain he remembers and notes that the Marines are good at putting you through pain in training. If he were deployed today he would be more afraid of not being there to provide for his children and the perspective would be different.

For the first couple of days in April, there was a push toward Baghdad. Situated at the banks of the Tigris, there was an abandoned town that was a mishmash of Saddam jihadists and punk kids. They were the Black Pajama guys mixed in with the Republican Guard. One day a sniper started shooting and Keefe could tell it was close because a gun has a different crack to it when it’s coming straight toward you. Keefe could tell that the sniper was shooting from the top of the houses across from where they were located. As this was happening, they were trying to get clearance to shoot because another battalion was coming up and they couldn’t tell if they were in the line of fire. Keefe doesn’t remember if they got clearance or just started shooting but he used a 50-caliber machine gun to demolish the row of houses. It’s possible that the sniper got out but it doesn’t seem likely.

Keefe says shooting a Mark 19 is fun but he doesn’t feel the need to go down that road again. He enjoyed using the weaponry and notes that what he sued was massive and had tremendous power. It takes big guys to be able to hold it steady and to carry it. There is an art to working the weapons and Keefe says that the Mark 19 takes finesses because it tends to jam frequently. He feels he got very adept at dropping Mark 19 rounds in trench lines. Keefe says that it is the shrapnel that kills people and so it is important that you aim at the ground so that you get that burst of shrapnel.

After the sniper incident and some pretty intense battles, they were getting closer to Baghdad. As they were coming up a highway, they ran into trouble. It wasn’t an ambush because at this point there was resistance every step of the way. At this moment, they encountered opposition that was well trained and these men were going to defend this stretch of highway no matter what. Keefe says these were the most determined individuals he fought during the war. There was a tank unit in front of Keefe and they had blown through the lines and had sustained huge casualties. Keefe’s battalion was still driving forward and they had four tanks at their disposal. They mushed up to the compound incrementally and the scene was chaos. Iraq is full of canals and 7-8 guys came up out of a tunnel under the road and started shooting. They were around 25-ft in front of Keefe and were firing AK47s but didn’t have training on how to use the weapons and were missing. Keefe’s driver did a 360 turn and drove back 10-15-ft. In hindsight, that was a good move because a Mark 19 round will theoretically not explode until it has gone three revolutions in the air and that would have put Keefe and his battalion in harm’s way had they not backed up. Keefe was able to shoot the guys from the tunnel from their new position.

This engagement was right on the road and there were friendlies all around. Keefe says he was pretty accurate and didn’t hit any friendlies but that the shots kicked up a tremendous amount of dust so that everything was obscured. As the dust cleared, Keefe saw bodies being dragged from the tunnel. He doesn’t have a good recollection of what happened in the immediate aftermath. His next memory is of him still being in the vehicle behind the gun. Others got out and he remembers one man who was still half-alive crying out until he eventually died. This is where he saw the older brother of one of the men he had just killed reacting to his brother’s death. It is Keefe’s least pleasant memory of the Iraq war.

Keefe recalls the first hardcore engagement that he was in that took place during a blinding snowstorm. His battalion has just taken a GOSP in the south and had been driving for four-five days. They had encountered resistant sporadically but had not engaged in any protracted fighting. Keefe remembers driving up the trench line in a hummer shooting his Mark 19 and that it was so dark that they were essentially blind. He relays a story he heard recounted but did not experience in which little girls were used as human shields. Their cries could be heard but because of the pitch-black darkness, no one could get to them. At the time of when that was happening, Keefe was on the other side of the formation. He remembers sitting in the dark. His most vivid memory is of Sergeant McCullough, someone who Keefe respected and admired, breaking down. Keefe says at the time he didn’t understand why. There was chaos and more men broke down but there was nothing in their previous behavior to indicate that would be their reaction t the violence and fighting. Keefe says he didn’t have those emotions but notes that McCullough was a father and that maybe there is something to Keefe’s theory that having children makes you more aware of danger.

When asked who should bear the brunt of military service for overseas conflicts, Keefe says it depends on how long term the American presence is predicted to last. He says that in 50 years he can’t imagine that it won’t be autonomous machines doing the fighting and that there is a whole other set of issues involved in that scenario. He notes that the American populous’ tolerance for casualties is trending dramatically downward. There were less than 10,000 American deaths in both wars combined that were like six months in Vietnam and people are up in arms. Vietnam was not more or less appreciably justified, and likely even less since Afghanistan attacked us in a very real way, but that there was less outrage. Keefe believes that eventually the American public will have zero tolerance for lives lost and that we will turn to fighting wars with drones and robots or not at all. Although he is not sure if any fighting will ever be 100% risk free for human, he does believe that any country attacked, even by drones, will find a way to fight back. It is possible this will take the form of terrorism. He notes that we are already fighting with less humans and points to the current use of drones. When as about the moral implications of this, Keefe says that he sees no difference between drones used today and tomahawk missiles and dumb bombs used during Word War II. He also points out that artillery shells can be shot from 20-ft away so direct engagement is limited there as well. Keefe says that he does understand that it’s easier to order an engagement if there is no human loss downside but points out that no one seemed to see a downside when, in Bosnia in ’98, no bomb dropping plan flew below 15,000 feet for the entire conflict.

Keefe is unsure about the ramifications of allowing women to serve on the front lines. He doesn’t see any logical reason to exclude them from serving as a tanker or on artillery. However, he sees being in the infantry different for two reasons. First, it is an extremely physical role. Keefe thinks that there are some women who could meet this challenge but wonders at what point it becomes impractical for them to sift through the applicant to find the women who can. He notes that the graduation rate of women in the School of Infantry has not been great and that training is difficult but not as difficult as an actual deployment. Being in the infantry is incredibly demanding and the training isn’t only running 25 or so miles but carrying heavy equipment while you run. Keefe has seen two men die from the strain. He says that as a track athlete, Keefe trained along side of women and so knows that some women are capable if it but that many are not. Is it worth having 100 women train for four years so that only two can actually do it?

Second, Keefe says that pointing a rifle at a person’s head and shooting repeatedly requires a type of sociopathy. He believes that men in a group of just men are more susceptible to brainwashing than if the group is mixed with women since women seem to be more appreciative of the consequences of their actions than men. In a group, both will attempt to rationalize each other and behave in a more civilized fashion. Men and women in a mixed group is more likely to engage in societally normalized behaviors and this is contrary to the what needs to happen in being trained to kill. As such, Keefe wonders if men and women serving in the infantry together would impact combat effectiveness. It is empathy, which is the hardest since you have to put it aside in the moment and it’s tough.

Coming Home

Keefe says that he has mixed feelings about his children following in his family’s history of military service. He doesn’t want his daughter to join the military but is more open to his son joining. Keefe is happy that he joined the Marines and feels he learned a lot and would want the same for his son. On the other hand, Keefe says that the idea of his son being in danger makes him much more appreciative of what his parents went through while he was deployed.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is a term that Keefe things needs to be rethought and that it would be helpful to have a term to talk about the feelings accompanying active engagement where you’ve killed someone. He has heard stories about drone operators who have PTSD as a result of their jobs. Keefe likens the job of a drone operator as playing video games with real people and can’t imagine what that must be like he thinks there should be a different term to talk about the after effects of taking a life in combat because now the term can include things that are also horrific such as rape. He says the effect is not the same and so new terminology is needed. He says that killing is the defining characteristic of his experience at war.

Keefe notes that he no longer has nightmares and that things have gotten better with time. He still circles back sometimes and it is generally to the one incident with the man and his brother. He still can’t watch news stories about murder and also does not like television shows about murder. It isn’t the blood or violence that disturbs him but the traumatic experiences of people. Keefe says that Newtown is an example of this and he is unable to think or talk about it. Keefe expects this feeling will never go away.

Citation


        
      
@misc{keefend,
  title = {Colin Keefe},
  keywords = {Afghanistan, AK47, Baghdad, Black Pajama, Fallujah, GOSPS (Gas Operation Separation Plants), Infantry, Iraq, Kuwait, Mark19, MRAP (Mine Resistant Ambush Protected), TOW (Optically Tracked, Wire Guided), PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder), Saddam Hussein, September 11th, Shiites, Sunni, Syria, United States Army, United States Marine Corps, Video games, WMDs (Weapons of Mass Destruction)},
  abstract = {Colin Keefe enlisted in the United States Marine Corps prior to September 11th and was honorably discharged in 2003. His unit was charged with taking Gas Operation Separation Plants (GOSPs). Keefe is happy that he joined the Marines and feels he learned a lot and would want the same for his son. On the other hand, Keefe says that the idea of his son being in danger makes him much more appreciative of what his parents went through while he was deployed.EnlistmentColin Keefe was born in Stanford, Connecticut. His family moved to Greenwich Village before settling in West Chester, New York where Keefe was raised. He was a track star in high school and attended Lehigh University. He enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. At the time of the events on September 11, 2001, Keefe was a corporal and a squad leader in the Marines and knew he would be deployed as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Keefe was honorably discharged in the summer of 2003. Months later he found himself back at Lehigh University working on a History degree where he was enrolled in a class taught by Dr. John Pettegrew. Keefe graduated with honors from Lehigh and then attended Georgetown Law School. He has worked as a lawyer in New York City and has recently moved back to the Lehigh Valley with his wife and two children. Keefe has attended alumni events at Lehigh University as well as the annual veteran's lunch the school sponsors. However, he notes that most attendees are significantly older and that he may no longer attend. Keefe donates financially to the track team.TrainingIn answer to how Keefe’s views on his service and training have evolved, he states that it is important to him that his service overseas meant something and was in service of the greater good. While he is unsure how to define the greater good, he does believe one element to the definition is whether it was for the greater good of the Iraqi people. His thoughts and struggles with his service have very little to do with the personal harm he was in and revolves around his killing of Iraqis. It is this killing which affects him most deeply. Keefe says that his service is more difficult to come to terms with if he killed those people for no reason. DeploymentKeefe relays the story of one incident for which he received a medal where his unit was ambushed on the outskirts of Baghdad. A teenager was firing at them and Keefe responded by shooting back and killing the teenager. As they were removing the bodies, the older brother of the slain teenager appeared and was very emotional about the death of his younger brother. That is the incident that sticks most with Keefe. He tends to hope that the war was in service of the greater good but even ten years later; he says that is still to be determined. He notes that recently Fallujah was retaken and that there are new reports every day of the fighting. On the tenth anniversary of the invasion, Keefe had a conversation with other veterans and concluded, at least initially, that it is probable had the United States not attacked that Iraq would be tearing itself to pieces right now and would look like the situation in Syria. The Sunni minority and the Shiite majority would have faced increased tensions exacerbated by Saddam Hussein growing older and Iran’s increase in power. All of those factors would have inevitably led to conflict. He believes that it would resemble Syria with Al-Qaeda taking the place of the Sunni and Iran taking the place of the Shiites. Keefe thinks that the invasion and the subsequent occupation bore some of the brunt of that for the Iraqi people and that perhaps their presence did take the main blow of an inevitable conflict. At least, that is what Keefe likes to think. In retrospect, Keefe says that the decision to invade should not have been made because there were no Weapons of Mass Destructions (WMDs) found so there is no argument that the invasion was actually in the best interest of the United States. He cares less about that discussion because he didn’t kill Americans. Keefe notes that there was a really small number of Americans killed when compared to the numbers inflicted upon Iraq. He is more concerned with the people that he killed, people who were defending their homes, than he is with determining whether the act was justified. He hopes that there is some reason to it all and that it wasn’t just senseless violence. Keefe relays his experience on the first day of the invasion. It happened at 2AM and they were situated in a giant burm that was 80-ft high and 100-ft wide. He describes it as a giant sand mountain extending the length of the border between Iraq and Kuwait. His unit had been holding position on the Kuwait side while awaiting word that to invade. They didn’t know it at the time but this was when there was the conflict in the United Nations over the war. A bombing campaign started in the morning so Keefe knew that they’d be going that night. The men packed up their gear and slept. At 2AM they blew a hole in the sand berm and they were the second Marine battalion into Iraq. At the same time, the Army was off to the west where there was little opposition but lots of desert. Keefe’s unit was charged with taking Gas Operation Separation Plants (GOSPs). There were 5 to 6 GOSPs and his unit was charged with taking two of them. He remembers all of them being especially keyed up and that there was artillery going off and planes flying overhead as they bombed. Keefe says that they even shot at an abandoned tank from the ’91 invasion since they were able to pick up the tank with their thermal vision sensing equipment. The tanks would retain heat from the day and then would glow at night. This enabled the thermal to be able to pick up the tank. He notes that night vision thermals are distinguishable from night vision goggles. Keefe says that as they rode in he was part of the anti-armor attack team and notes that the hummers he rode in were not as advanced as today’s Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles. His had no armor or shields. Keefe served as gunner and used a MARK 19 automatic grenade launcher that shot 40-mm grenades like a machine gun over three quarters of a mile. Along with Keefe, his vehicle contained a sergeant and a corporal first. Corporal first was responsible for serving as a javelin gunner. The vehicles were equipped with Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire-guided (TOW) missiles on top of it and had thermal image capabilities. The rest of the men had night vision goggles that take in ambient light and magnifies it so that you can see well. Keefe was situated in a turret so that he was standing out of the Hummer with his upper body exposed. Today, there would be shields offering some protection but not then. His machine gun was mounted on top of the Hummer with grenades to shoot out of it located close by. As they drove through the desert, they picked up some thermals and shot at them before realizing that they were abandoned. The mission was well timed and they arrived at the GOSPs at dawn. It was defended but without gumption. The Iraqi army shot some token rounds before surrendering or fleeing. Keefe remembers that it seemed exciting at the time but it was nothing when compared to later conflicts. He remembers that it was a giant oil refinery with pipes everywhere and that they holes in the pipes caused by gunfire caused gushing flames. The whole scene was better than any movie. After that, they rounded up what Iraqis they could find and called it a day. His feelings described in the 2005 transcript excerpt about having a lot of adrenaline but little fear still rings true. He doesn’t think of the personal danger he was in while serving, In retrospect, the stress was slowly building so at the end of his enlistment he was pretty wrung out but that the feeling was different from fear. Keefe doesn’t recall being scared overall. Instead, it was exciting. There is no more a difficult or demanding endeavor than war. It is a fundamental test of a person’s abilities. Keefe was already in the Marine Corps for four years when the occupation started and he was involuntarily extended to go to Iraq. Still, he would have elected to go anyway. Years later he received extra pay for that service as a result of President Obama signing a bill for stop-loss pay. He received the money as a check delivered in the mail. Since having children, Keefe is more cared of anything happening to them than he was of anything during the war. He relays the story of his son getting stitches and says that he has deeper connection to his children than to anything else. He isn’t sure he ever cared about anything before his children and that includes himself. Looking back, Keefe isn’t sure he realized how much he had to lose. While he didn’t want to let his buddies down, it wasn’t the same level of emotional investment. He also says that there wasn’t much physical pain he remembers and notes that the Marines are good at putting you through pain in training. If he were deployed today he would be more afraid of not being there to provide for his children and the perspective would be different. For the first couple of days in April, there was a push toward Baghdad. Situated at the banks of the Tigris, there was an abandoned town that was a mishmash of Saddam jihadists and punk kids. They were the Black Pajama guys mixed in with the Republican Guard. One day a sniper started shooting and Keefe could tell it was close because a gun has a different crack to it when it’s coming straight toward you. Keefe could tell that the sniper was shooting from the top of the houses across from where they were located. As this was happening, they were trying to get clearance to shoot because another battalion was coming up and they couldn’t tell if they were in the line of fire. Keefe doesn’t remember if they got clearance or just started shooting but he used a 50-caliber machine gun to demolish the row of houses. It’s possible that the sniper got out but it doesn’t seem likely. Keefe says shooting a Mark 19 is fun but he doesn’t feel the need to go down that road again. He enjoyed using the weaponry and notes that what he sued was massive and had tremendous power. It takes big guys to be able to hold it steady and to carry it. There is an art to working the weapons and Keefe says that the Mark 19 takes finesses because it tends to jam frequently. He feels he got very adept at dropping Mark 19 rounds in trench lines. Keefe says that it is the shrapnel that kills people and so it is important that you aim at the ground so that you get that burst of shrapnel. After the sniper incident and some pretty intense battles, they were getting closer to Baghdad. As they were coming up a highway, they ran into trouble. It wasn’t an ambush because at this point there was resistance every step of the way. At this moment, they encountered opposition that was well trained and these men were going to defend this stretch of highway no matter what. Keefe says these were the most determined individuals he fought during the war. There was a tank unit in front of Keefe and they had blown through the lines and had sustained huge casualties. Keefe’s battalion was still driving forward and they had four tanks at their disposal. They mushed up to the compound incrementally and the scene was chaos. Iraq is full of canals and 7-8 guys came up out of a tunnel under the road and started shooting. They were around 25-ft in front of Keefe and were firing AK47s but didn’t have training on how to use the weapons and were missing. Keefe’s driver did a 360 turn and drove back 10-15-ft. In hindsight, that was a good move because a Mark 19 round will theoretically not explode until it has gone three revolutions in the air and that would have put Keefe and his battalion in harm’s way had they not backed up. Keefe was able to shoot the guys from the tunnel from their new position. This engagement was right on the road and there were friendlies all around. Keefe says he was pretty accurate and didn’t hit any friendlies but that the shots kicked up a tremendous amount of dust so that everything was obscured. As the dust cleared, Keefe saw bodies being dragged from the tunnel. He doesn’t have a good recollection of what happened in the immediate aftermath. His next memory is of him still being in the vehicle behind the gun. Others got out and he remembers one man who was still half-alive crying out until he eventually died. This is where he saw the older brother of one of the men he had just killed reacting to his brother’s death. It is Keefe’s least pleasant memory of the Iraq war. Keefe recalls the first hardcore engagement that he was in that took place during a blinding snowstorm. His battalion has just taken a GOSP in the south and had been driving for four-five days. They had encountered resistant sporadically but had not engaged in any protracted fighting. Keefe remembers driving up the trench line in a hummer shooting his Mark 19 and that it was so dark that they were essentially blind. He relays a story he heard recounted but did not experience in which little girls were used as human shields. Their cries could be heard but because of the pitch-black darkness, no one could get to them. At the time of when that was happening, Keefe was on the other side of the formation. He remembers sitting in the dark. His most vivid memory is of Sergeant McCullough, someone who Keefe respected and admired, breaking down. Keefe says at the time he didn’t understand why. There was chaos and more men broke down but there was nothing in their previous behavior to indicate that would be their reaction t the violence and fighting. Keefe says he didn’t have those emotions but notes that McCullough was a father and that maybe there is something to Keefe’s theory that having children makes you more aware of danger. When asked who should bear the brunt of military service for overseas conflicts, Keefe says it depends on how long term the American presence is predicted to last. He says that in 50 years he can’t imagine that it won’t be autonomous machines doing the fighting and that there is a whole other set of issues involved in that scenario. He notes that the American populous’ tolerance for casualties is trending dramatically downward. There were less than 10,000 American deaths in both wars combined that were like six months in Vietnam and people are up in arms. Vietnam was not more or less appreciably justified, and likely even less since Afghanistan attacked us in a very real way, but that there was less outrage. Keefe believes that eventually the American public will have zero tolerance for lives lost and that we will turn to fighting wars with drones and robots or not at all. Although he is not sure if any fighting will ever be 100\% risk free for human, he does believe that any country attacked, even by drones, will find a way to fight back. It is possible this will take the form of terrorism. He notes that we are already fighting with less humans and points to the current use of drones. When as about the moral implications of this, Keefe says that he sees no difference between drones used today and tomahawk missiles and dumb bombs used during Word War II. He also points out that artillery shells can be shot from 20-ft away so direct engagement is limited there as well. Keefe says that he does understand that it’s easier to order an engagement if there is no human loss downside but points out that no one seemed to see a downside when, in Bosnia in ’98, no bomb dropping plan flew below 15,000 feet for the entire conflict. Keefe is unsure about the ramifications of allowing women to serve on the front lines. He doesn’t see any logical reason to exclude them from serving as a tanker or on artillery. However, he sees being in the infantry different for two reasons. First, it is an extremely physical role. Keefe thinks that there are some women who could meet this challenge but wonders at what point it becomes impractical for them to sift through the applicant to find the women who can. He notes that the graduation rate of women in the School of Infantry has not been great and that training is difficult but not as difficult as an actual deployment. Being in the infantry is incredibly demanding and the training isn’t only running 25 or so miles but carrying heavy equipment while you run. Keefe has seen two men die from the strain. He says that as a track athlete, Keefe trained along side of women and so knows that some women are capable if it but that many are not. Is it worth having 100 women train for four years so that only two can actually do it? Second, Keefe says that pointing a rifle at a person’s head and shooting repeatedly requires a type of sociopathy. He believes that men in a group of just men are more susceptible to brainwashing than if the group is mixed with women since women seem to be more appreciative of the consequences of their actions than men. In a group, both will attempt to rationalize each other and behave in a more civilized fashion. Men and women in a mixed group is more likely to engage in societally normalized behaviors and this is contrary to the what needs to happen in being trained to kill. As such, Keefe wonders if men and women serving in the infantry together would impact combat effectiveness. It is empathy, which is the hardest since you have to put it aside in the moment and it’s tough.Coming HomeKeefe says that he has mixed feelings about his children following in his family’s history of military service. He doesn’t want his daughter to join the military but is more open to his son joining. Keefe is happy that he joined the Marines and feels he learned a lot and would want the same for his son. On the other hand, Keefe says that the idea of his son being in danger makes him much more appreciative of what his parents went through while he was deployed. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is a term that Keefe things needs to be rethought and that it would be helpful to have a term to talk about the feelings accompanying active engagement where you’ve killed someone. He has heard stories about drone operators who have PTSD as a result of their jobs. Keefe likens the job of a drone operator as playing video games with real people and can’t imagine what that must be like he thinks there should be a different term to talk about the after effects of taking a life in combat because now the term can include things that are also horrific such as rape. He says the effect is not the same and so new terminology is needed. He says that killing is the defining characteristic of his experience at war. Keefe notes that he no longer has nightmares and that things have gotten better with time. He still circles back sometimes and it is generally to the one incident with the man and his brother. He still can’t watch news stories about murder and also does not like television shows about murder. It isn’t the blood or violence that disturbs him but the traumatic experiences of people. Keefe says that Newtown is an example of this and he is unable to think or talk about it. Keefe expects this feeling will never go away.},
  language = {English},
}